Nuclear Security for Who?

Jeffrey Lewis 0:05

You are listening to the Arms Control Wonk podcast, a podcast on arms control, disarmament, and nonproliferation. I'm Dr. Jeffrey Lewis, a professor at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey. Joining me today is a special guest, Miss Alon, and a person about DC now, Jasmine Owens, the lead organizer and policy coordinator at Physicians for Social Responsibility.

Hey, Jasmine, how you doing? Good, how are you? I'm in a surprisingly good mood, given how terrible the world is. How about you?

Jasmine Owens 0:44

I'm doing okay on this Friday.

Jeffrey 0:47

I can't say I'm in as good of a mood, but... Well, so for listeners, the reason that I am interviewing Jasmine, I mean, there are lots of reasons, but... An important idea that I've had lately is it's a tough time. It's tough because of the pandemic. It's tough because I find the Biden administration disappointing. It's tough because I'm terrified of another Trump administration.

And I realized that part of that is that I have become old and cranky. And I thought it would be fun to channel the energy of someone at the beginning of her career who still has some hope and faith I had, I had talked to Jasmine about coming on the podcast before when she had recently graduated at Miss and then she went on someone else's podcast.

Jasmine 1:32

So I don't recall it happening like that for the record. Did you actually reach out to me first? I thought I did the podcast and you're like, wait, when are you coming on mine? And I was like, whenever.

Jeffrey 1:47

Well, so what technically happened is you were working for Rethink Media. Oh, you're right. I forgot about all that. And you were placing people in podcasts. And this is not a criticism of Rethink Media. This is an observation about our field. Invariably, they're like, not Rethink Media, but in general in our field, people are like, oh, you should have some new voices on.

And so they have a 20-something contact me who is literally a new voice saying, But you're there to pitch other people. And I just, I think it's the craziest thing about our field. Like if you want young people to succeed, then like you just, you let the young people do it. Right. So I think at the time I was like, well, I'd like to have you on.

And you were like, no, no, no. My job is to like pitch these people. And I was like, okay. But

Jasmine 2:40

No, you're right. Yeah. But I mean, Rethink Media, their whole thing is just, you know, helping to, you know, move this conversation and, you know, get policy experts and whatnot into these places. So that I was just in a supporting role. But now that I'm not, I can promote myself.

Jeffrey 2:59

So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? Because I know you because you went to Miss. But you're from Wisconsin.

Jasmine 3:09

Yeah. Well, technically, I'm actually from Florida, but I don't like to claim Florida because I mean, Florida.

Jeffrey 3:16

So because you're not a shirtless man with a mullet.

Jasmine 3:18

Yeah, I know some, but I am not one. But yeah, I am from Wisconsin, the dear rival to your Illinois birthplace.

Jeffrey 3:32

My best friend is from Wisconsin and he tells me I'm a fib.

Jasmine 3:37

He's not wrong.

Jeffrey 3:40

I just tell him I love visiting Illinois State Park.

Jasmine 3:44

Hey, it's a pretty state. Yeah, that's you're you're right there. Listen, I am not a big fan of Wisconsin myself. All it is to me is just, you know, cheese, beer and racism. But that is where I am from.

Jeffrey 3:59

I was thinking that joke and thought it would be inappropriate for me to say.

Jasmine 4:03

It's OK. I'll say it for you.

Jeffrey 4:07

Yeah, but you went to the University of Wisconsin at Madison.

Jasmine 4:11

I did. I was so graciously offered a full scholarship to attend. And so I went where I studied international studies with minors in environmental studies and African studies. So a lot of studies going on. But I actually had no interest or like nuclear weapons were not on my radar in the slightest until 2017 when I started working for Outrider Foundation.

And they took a chance on me. And that is when I first started to learn about this topic. Like what got me into it was the fact that Outrider focuses on like the human impacts of nuclear weapons and educating the public about that, you know, bringing it more to people's awareness. And that very much vibed with my social justice background.

Heart and the rest is kind of history I read your book I remember and then I was like oh who's this guy he's cool let me figure out who Jeffrey Lewis is and then you must have been so disappointed when you got to miss no I was very much like in a class like hey I remember being one of your classes and because like you do have a different teaching style and I was sitting there and I was like oh god I don't know what I'm doing here

Jeffrey 5:36

Do you mean do you mean my like randomly calling on people and then just deciding to scrap a lecture at a moment's notice? Yeah. Yeah. Good luck preparing for an hour with me.

Jasmine 5:47

I know. But during the pandemic, you were a saving grace. So I had no more complaints after that.

Jeffrey 5:54

Well, tell me a little bit more about, so this was an internship you did at the Outrider Foundation. And so you're just like a college kid who's like, I'm kind of interested in the rest of the world. I'm in Wisconsin. They're in Wisconsin. Sure. Literally. That's kind of like, have you ever heard of nuclear weapons? And you're like, yeah.

And I was like, no, but I'll learn. Wow. That's fascinating. And so one internship then led you to apply for graduate study in this field.

Jasmine 6:24

Yeah. Cause I did it for, I was, I was doing it for about a year or two before I was like, okay, I have to figure out what I'm doing after I graduate. And I didn't know. So I was like more school. And I got an email from Ms. promoting their nonproliferation and terrorism studies program. And I was like, OK, this is up my alley.

Let's apply. And I got it. And I was like, OK, cool. I don't have to apply anywhere else for doing it. And that's what led me to Ms.

Jeffrey 6:59

Can you talk a little bit about the connection that you make between social justice and nuclear weapons? Because I think there is one, and yet I don't think as a community, we do a great job of teasing that relationship out. In fact, I don't think we do a great job of embedding the challenge of nuclear weapons in a broader understanding of how to make the world a better place.

So I'd be really curious how you describe that relationship.

Jasmine 7:24

Yeah, you are 100% right that the community for a long time has failed to even just reckon with the impacts of these weapons. Like, I feel like so much of the focus is on just the policy and, you know, deterrence and all of this security talk, which like, yes, that's valid to a degree. But when you like...

Dig down deep into it. It's security for who? Because on the surface, these weapons don't provide security for anyone. They literally will kill us all if we let them. But then even just their existence and their maintenance, the production, every step of the way that these weapons are created and still exist, they have real harms on the environment, on communities.

And usually those are... Black and brown communities, oppressed communities, indigenous communities. And no one really talks about that. And so like the reason I even got into this, like really in the first place was learning about the Shinkalobwe mine and the Democratic Republic of the Congo and how during World War II, like 80% of the uranium that was supplied for the two atomic bombs was mined from this particular mine.

And When the DRC gained independence and they elected their first democratic elected prime minister, Patrice Lumumba, he was like, we're not going to provide the US and Belgium access to this mine anymore because this is kind of destroying our country. And he wasn't completely opposed to Soviet help. And so basically the US and Belgium, and I think the UK too, kind of all plotted as they did back then.

And they assassinated him and then propped up a dictator for 40 years. And so like learning about that and like an outrider having to learn about all of the human impacts of these weapons, like it's overwhelming. Appalling to me that it's not talked about more. Cause I'm like, when you learn how egregious it is and the things that these governments, especially the US has done to not just our own citizens, but like people around the world, it's like, why is this not at the forefront of the conversation?

Because as we can tell in the past couple of years, With the Black Lives Matter movement and things like that, social justice is such a great way to mobilize the broader public, because when you focus on real harm, it gets people angry and it gets people fed up with injustices that are being committed against people for the sake of a few vested interests.

But we don't ever focus on that. And so I feel like that's also why this community has struggled to really take off recently. During the Cold War, yeah, there was such an imminent threat of nuclear war that it was easy to mobilize. But that's not the case now, although we might be getting there again. So we need a new approach.

And I think the best way to do that is highlighting the intersections of nuclear weapons with other movements. And that is... The injustice aspect. So yeah, that's kind of like where me at PSR and my supervisor and our director of communications, Mari Faines, like that's where we're taking PSR this year and beyond because it's what's most important at the end of the day too.

Jeffrey 11:04

Yeah, I also, I suspect that a lot of people are very reluctant to try to draw those conclusions because there's so much gatekeeping in our field.

Jasmine 11:12

Yes, oh my God.

Jeffrey 11:14

And, you know, so, I mean, I'm not really allowed, I'm not supposed to talk about, but I've been in some meetings lately with some defense department officials and, you know, the career people are, you know, they're, Pretty much middle-aged white men of very narrow background. And I think they're the people doing the gatekeeping. So I think it is often very frightening to people to draw these deeper parallels, because if you do, you're taking like one unpopular idea, which is changing how we think about nuclear weapons, and you're marrying it to another idea, which I mean, I think it's broadly popular, but it's not popular among the people in charge about making our society more equitable and more just.

And so it's like two terrifying ideas married together, probably not gonna win us a lot of friends.

Jasmine 12:16

Yeah, I mean, I mean, that's fine with me because at the end of the day, I mean, obviously I don't want to alienate myself, but like my job isn't to necessarily make friends. It's to move this along and work towards getting rid of these weapons. And you're right. It is, this field is very gatekeepy. And I think, I mean, for one, it is a, Can be a hard topic to get into because it seems so complex and so out of reach for people when that's not necessarily the case.

You can very much talk about this to even a child and they will understand. It doesn't have to be so high level all the time. I mean, there's the Butter Battle book.

Jeffrey 12:55

What is that? Oh, I mean... I know we're not like universally wild about Dr. Seuss anymore, but on the nuclear arms race, he was good. He wrote something called the Butter Battle Book about the absurdity of the nuclear arms race. Wasn't that like banned or something? Not the Butter Battle Book. That one doesn't have anything objectionable in it.

It was a few other things. You know, they weren't banned. The Seuss family, I think quite rightly, decided to curate his legacy and just remove certain titles that... You know, are not going to be appealing to a modern cosmopolitan reader. Yeah. Which is not being banned. It's not being canceled. It's being your best self and editing your worst moments.

And I say that as a person who, you know, I got a big mouth. I've had my worst moments. And so I think his kids just said, you know, or grandkids, you know, not all of this work needs to be shared anymore.

Jasmine 13:53

Yeah, but I mean, yeah, so this field definitely suffers from gatekeeping and people who can't let go and pass the torch to a younger generation. And that kind of needs to happen, especially if we are going in this direction of trying to make this movement more intersectional because You can't really have a bunch of old white men who the world is essentially created for and caters to talking about the social injustices that are being inflicted upon largely black and brown communities because there's a disconnect.

They don't understand. Those are not their experiences. And that's why it's so important to diversify this field and bring in new young people Diverse voices to talk about this and to advocate for these issues, because in some ways, when you are focusing on the more injustice aspect and talking about those that aren't included in this definition of security that they've curated about these weapons, I feel like they're much more adept at talking about this because it's often lived experiences and very close to their communities.

And so there is such a disconnect. And that's kind of why it seems to be failing is because we can't have all of these older white people or just this certain population, especially from the Cold War era, spearheading this because, again, it's just... There's space for them in the field, definitely, but there is a time where you have to kind of step aside and let younger people take the lead.

And that just hasn't really been happening.

Jeffrey 15:49

Yeah, I mean, it's always been a battle. I mean, I have to say when I got into the field 25 years ago, It included a substantial number of the same people. Yeah, people don't... I mean, it is a very small and insular community. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you. And I'm hoping you'll talk a little bit about the stuff you're doing at PSR because I...

I really want to emphasize for people that, you know, it's whatever, it's like the same 12 people who get invited to the round tables. It's the same 12 people who write op-eds. But there's actually a much larger universe of people out there who do have something to say about these issues. And, and, you know, you're one of them and you're also doing a lot of work to, to, to highlight those.

So.

Jasmine 16:42

Yeah, no, you're definitely right. It is usually like the same 12 people. And when I get those emails of like this event and it's the same people, I'm like, I don't, what's new?

Jeffrey 16:51

Now the benefit of that is you don't have to go to the talks anymore because you already know what they're gonna say. So it is very time-saving.

Jasmine 16:59

True. And it's not to say that there's nothing to learn from these individuals because yes, they're experts. They have valuable knowledge on this, but it's like, okay, Again, let's get some new fresh ideas. And that's part of the reason why PSR we're leading this year with our demand access campaign. And it's all about this idea that for as long as we fund violence to keep the peace, our access to healthy bodies, minds, communities, environments is always going to be denied.

So this whole campaign that we're doing is meant to reach out to different movements and reach out to young, diverse, mainly health professionals, because we are, you know, physicians for social responsibility, but not just health professionals.

Jeffrey 17:50

I mean, you got a Nobel Prize for it, so.

Jasmine 17:52

Yeah. So yeah, our goal is to reach young, diverse health professionals and Just diversify this field and get new voices talking about this issue and finding new and creative solutions to it, because clearly what we're doing isn't working. So we need to look outward and bring in more people who have valuable information to provide and valuable expertise that we may not have thought about before, because they, you know, didn't go to this grad school, you know, they didn't study this for, you know, 20 years. That doesn't mean that they don't have something to Added the conversation.

It's the exact opposite. We need to get creative with this. And so that's where PSR is going. We're trying to diversify who's talking about this issue and who's advocating for these issues.

Jeffrey 18:41

Can you say a little bit more about the title of the program? You said it was Demand Access. How do you conceive of, what does it mean to demand access in this context?

Jasmine 18:50

Yeah. So like the most, I guess, prevalent, you know, issue that comes to mind is the military budget and the fact that, you know, we it's the highest military budget we've ever had. And yet, you know, we're allegedly not in wars, even though. That itself could be contested. And it's kind of like, well, what are we spending all this money on?

We've seen with the pandemic that just throwing money at the military is not going to solve all of our problems. We need to actually invest in our public health infrastructure. We need to invest in our education infrastructure. We need to invest in all of these other things that are more... You know, relevant to the lives of everyday Americans.

And that's not being done because the government is being basically ruled by the military industrial complex. And they're, all we're basically doing is just lining the pockets of some defense contractors. And so the, like one of the main focuses of the demand access campaign is demanding access to the resources and funds that we need to actually support the American people.

And One of the targets of that is the military budget because there is no reason that it should be that large. It's just, it's absurd at this point. And so that's the whole idea of like demanding access to these resources that were taken for, to prevent some hypothetical or, you know, future catastrophe while ignoring, you know, real everyday catastrophes that are happening to Americans.

Right now.

Jeffrey 20:34

So I wanted to end by asking you a personal question, which is, so you have, you have just moved to DC. Is that right? Yeah. I literally in December. So I'm so excited about this because I remember, I mean, every person is nostalgic about being young. And I remember moving to DC for the first time. And it's a mix of things I loved and hated.

And that mix changed over time. But I'm just curious how you're finding it. You know, is it... Is it disappointing? Is it the pandemic? So it's just the same as any place else? What's it feel like?

Jasmine 21:19

Well, I moved to DC from Monterey because I stayed past graduation for a bit. And I was very, I was like fleeing Monterey at that point because I was so over it.

Jeffrey 21:32

So even though it is still- Tired of the dolphins and the nice produce.

Jasmine 21:36

I mean, yeah, it's gorgeous, but oh my God, is it so- Dead. fair enough. But yeah, so then like, even though it's still the pandemic and you know Omicron is still going strong, it's still a lot more exciting because there are, there's more to do. and there's things I can, you know, I can go to the National Mall if I wanted. I have not gone there yet..

There's just so many more things to do. So I am excited for, you know, once things kind of calm down again to be able to like go out more and meet new people. I've been able to like meet people in the field now who are here, which is cool. And yeah, so it's exciting. I haven't, I'm not disillusioned yet.

I mean, I wasn't fully excited to come here, but I was like, okay, we can do this. We'll make the best of it. So yeah, I'm excited to, I'm excited for this year and to see, you know, what DC has in store post pandemic, whenever that is.

Jeffrey 22:41

So I'm so glad you said that because I wanted to end on, it's been such a difficult two years. And I find that the thing that has been the best part of my life has been students like you, because you are still optimistic about the world. And so just hearing that excitement in your voice for 2022, when I'm not sure I can manage it, definitely is very uplifting.

Jasmine 23:09

Is there anything else you wanted to say?

Jeffrey 23:10

I know you've got a meeting you've got to run to.

Jasmine 23:16

I don't think so. I mean, yeah, everything I said, I know that it comes off as very critical of the movement, but I am so happy to work with the people that I work with. There are great people who are, you know, fighting for a better tomorrow, one could say. And yeah, not all hope is lost. I think that this year, I do have an optimism that this year, I think The field can start to get its shit together.

And I'm excited.

Jeffrey 23:48

Well, I think that's a great New Year's resolution to end on, people. Let's get our shit together.

Jasmine 23:55

Yes, please. Me included.

Jeffrey 23:58

I'm going to record my outro, but I know I've made you late to a meeting, so I'm going to let you run. If you can just...